President Obama

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Spartan_coder
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Re: President Obama

Post by Spartan_coder » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:23 am

ib wrote:What you have worry to about is the respect of the other 'Western' countries who have been your allies for the last century, i.e. since you began to grow up?
Oh you mean those nations whose bacon we had to save twice from the Germans and then again from the Russians? Not claiming we did it alone, but you couldn't have survived without us...well, not without speaking with a German accent at least.
ib wrote:Their continued, now rather thin, support for the US is largely 'for old times sake', because they've not felt much respect for US leadership since Reagan, and Dubya has practically eradicated it altogether already!
Since Reagan? Yeah, that would figure the guy that put the stake in the heart of the USSR, you had no respect for. I remember all the demonstrations against him...how he was going to cause a nuclear holocaust etc... looks pretty much like most of Europe was running around like chicken little.
ib wrote:While only the votes of the US citizens will count here, you should not lose sight of the fact that the 'West' overwhelmingly want to see Obama in the Whithouse and see no reason why they should consider McCain as any better than Bush.
You're under the mis-apprehension that your opinion SHOULD matter. I know the argument is that the US is so important militarily and economically that it affects you..you should have a say. Here's my reply... strengthen your own economy and military... we've done the heavy lifting for 50+ years without a thank you even. Hell from my understanding, Finland is the only Country that's ever paid back their Marshall plan debts..and they sided with the Germans!
ib wrote:Their respect for the American people will never diminish but they want to see that you recognise that your place in the World really needs to change from what we've seen in the last decade in particular ......
I'm sure you'd rather see the Iraqi's back under Saddam's boot or somebody's boot... but the fact is that war is won... most of the country is back in the control of the Iraqi's and the force withdrawal papers are nearly complete.... meanwhile, we're still keeping a force in S. Korea as a speed bump, just like we kept them in Germany to prevent the USSR from turning a Paris Spring into a Prague Spring.
ib wrote:Perhaps there will be a risk to International Relations with Obama, but it's a risk that must be taken as the alternative is continued decline that will erode many options for the future .... and the whole World must worry about that!
Nice. But the risk isn't to YOUR country with Obama at the Wheel...it's to ours. And we've had enough citizens killed on our soil because of the in-attention created by chasing interns rather than killing America's enemies.

I wonder with all the clamoring for a say in US elections, that none of you require a say in Russian or Chinese elections... I mean Russia JUST invaded a country SPECIFICALLY to control an oil pipeline (and thus squeeze European options) and I wonder where all the demonstrations are... where are the human shields? The Chinese crack down on tibetan monks...and still no outcry..

It's almost as if there is a double standard.

And let's remember Nations don't have Friends.. they have interests. And it's been made clear what Europes are.
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Snowy
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Re: President Obama

Post by Snowy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:38 am

[troll mode on]Republicans will need to cheat again if they want to win that election.[troll mode off]

mike_ac
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Re: President Obama

Post by mike_ac » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:22 am

Snowy wrote:[troll mode on]Republicans will need to cheat again if they want to win that election.[troll mode off]
A bit of a tough one, since ACORN (voter registration fraud) was tied to the Democratic campaigns, and since the US is a republic, not a democracy (i.e., 1 person 1 vote is not one of its founding principles, so the electoral college vote is the only one that matters).

Still, neither candidate is very appealing...
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ib
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Re: President Obama

Post by ib » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:07 am

Jeez S_C, you are a mite touchy, ain't ya?

For the record and at the risk of being on the receiving end of another of your tiresome reactionary diatribes, I did not suggest that anyone outside the USA should have or even want a say in your pseudo-democratic elections, so spare us the those same old infantile claims of what the US has done for us and think about what the US has done to us instead. It's a bloody miracle that anyone wants to have anything to do with you anyway!

You also jumped too soon about Reagan. The sense of 'since Reagan' means 'after Reagan' so please read before you pounce?
Regards.
ib
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Spartan_coder
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Re: President Obama

Post by Spartan_coder » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:22 am

ib wrote:Jeez S_C, you are a mite touchy, ain't ya?
I can assure you, not in the least.
ib wrote:For the record and at the risk of being on the receiving end of another of your tiresome reactionary diatribes, I did not suggest that anyone outside the USA should have or even want a say in your pseudo-democratic elections, so spare us the those same old infantile claims of what the US has done for us and think about what the US has done to us instead.
OK... I'll bite. WHAT has the U.S. DONE TO For example, the UK, France or Germany? (specifics, because honestly, I can't think of how we've forced a negative impact on any of those mentioned)

As for pseudo-democratic elections... I'm pretty sure that our founding fathers created a Republic not a democracy. I've never claimed anything different and indeed, the fewer morons that vote, the better for the health of the Republic.
ib wrote:It's a bloody miracle that anyone wants to have anything to do with you anyway!
You're welcome to take your glove and bat and go home. No one forces your nations to do anything
ib wrote:You also jumped too soon about Reagan. The sense of 'since Reagan' means 'after Reagan' so please read before you pounce?
If you are not clear in what you write, you can hardly complain about how it is read. Your statement can be read either way. You know what you meant... you should write it that way then.
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bgamble
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Re: President Obama

Post by bgamble » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:33 am

Spartan_coder wrote: WHAT has the U.S. DONE TO For example, the UK, .
Before you answer that I would like to point out that I was not sent here. I came on my own.
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thx4allthefish
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Re: President Obama

Post by thx4allthefish » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:08 am

ib wrote: ...
For the record and at the risk of being on the receiving end of another of your tiresome reactionary diatribes, I did not suggest that anyone outside the USA should have or even want a say in your pseudo-democratic elections, so spare us the those same old infantile claims of what the US has done for us and think about what the US has done to us instead. It's a bloody miracle that anyone wants to have anything to do with you anyway!
...
[bow] i agree with this wholeheartedly [/bow]
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ib
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Re: President Obama

Post by ib » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:16 am

Hey S_C, I love the way you only respond to the points that allow you to rant, and ignore all others .... guess I'll do the same ....
honestly, I can't think of how we've forced a negative impact on any of those mentioned)
Of course, you can't ... you're American!

But ... consider asking the relatives of all the Allied troops in your recent spate of rather dubious wars who have died at the hands of gung-ho trigger-happy US forces ...
Your statement can be read either way.
No .. it can't! Derives from Old English = 'after that' .


To BG,

You're welcome ...........
Regards.
ib
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VLozano
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Re: President Obama

Post by VLozano » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:30 am

Spartan_coder wrote:WHAT has the U.S. DONE TO For example, the UK, France or Germany?
No clue, I just can talk as a Catalan (a weird branch of Spaniard oppressed people). The US helped Franco to prevent Spain to become (again) a democracy. A lot of spanish people died because that, and thousand were repressed because that.
Oh yes, and you sent us some chocolate.
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ib
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Re: President Obama

Post by ib » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:33 am

Oh yes, and you sent us some chocolate.
Only it wasn't really chocolate ... just that candy crap you think is chocolate ......
Regards.
ib
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Spartan_coder
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Re: President Obama

Post by Spartan_coder » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:46 am

ib wrote:Hey S_C, I love the way you only respond to the points that allow you to rant, and ignore all others .... guess I'll do the same ....
What item do you want me to specifically respond to then? I thought I covered them all quite nicely..
ib wrote:Of course, you can't ... you're American!
Perhaps you ought to apply a similar line of thinking when writing about what Americans need to consider when we go to the polls.
ib wrote:But ... consider asking the relatives of all the Allied troops in your recent spate of rather dubious wars who have died at the hands of gung-ho trigger-happy US forces ...
Fair enough. Blue on Blue Deaths are a tragic outcome of shooting wars. Even more so when disparate forces are working together. More training...both ways is usually employed to prevent that.

Within our own forces, combined arms teams need lots of training to prevent such deaths. It's an even more important point with International forces to whit: In September 2007 British Army units firing missiles at Taliban guerrillas overshoot their targets and hit a Danish unit on the far side of the Taliban force, killing two and in January 2008, during a night-time patrol in bad weather, a Dutch infantry unit fired on another Dutch unit working with Afghan National Army soldiers, killing six.

Military service is deadly, even in peacetime.

Is that the best you have for how your "immature cousin" across the Atlantic has negatively impacted the UK? Surely there must be something more to justify the depth and breadth of your(Western Europes) apparent disdain...
ib wrote: No .. it can't! Derives from Old English = 'after that' .
Yes... it can. "After that" refers to an event. Dictionary.com indicates that Since means "following an event". Reagan isn't an event. His election was, so was his administration. You don't refer to which you mean... so yes, your statement can be read to mean "Since Reagan was elected" or "Since Reagan left office"...
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Spartan_coder
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Re: President Obama

Post by Spartan_coder » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:03 am

VLozano wrote:. The US helped Franco to prevent Spain to become (again) a democracy. A lot of spanish people died because that, and thousand were repressed because that.
You were admitted to the UN too...did the UN keep you from becoming a democracy? The treaty of Madrid is not the sole reason that Franco managed to repress political speech in Spain for so many years.

Great Britain and France recognized Franco as the legitimate ruler of Spain before WW2..did not they do more then to repress the Spainish people?
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ib
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Re: President Obama

Post by ib » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:19 am

I fear for international relations and the last glimmer of respect for the US as the most powerful nation in the world if Barrack Hussein Obama is somehow elected.


This was the original comment by DavGSSP - the inclusion of the Hussain middle name clearly suggests a rather prejudiced source for this comment.

My response to this was to present a different, nethertheless mostly positive, viewpoint on the claim that Obama would almost certainly not be a danger to international relations.

It wasn't meant to an opportunity for you to drag up all these tired old arguments of USA versus Europe. There is no USA versus Europe! We're still the friends we have been for a long time.

It's pretty sad that you, and too many like you in the States, do not recognise the true attitude of the other English-speaking nations in the World, together with many of our friends on the Continent, that leads us to stick with the USA even when we may not entirely agree with you.

When are you going to grow up ?

I'm too tired to argue about things you only think I daid ........
Regards.
ib
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Spartan_coder
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Re: President Obama

Post by Spartan_coder » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:38 am

ib wrote:My response to this was to present a different, nethertheless mostly positive, viewpoint on the claim that Obama would almost certainly not be a danger to international relations.
I addressed why you don't think it's a danger...at least not to your nation.
ib wrote:It wasn't meant to an opportunity for you to drag up all these tired old arguments of USA versus Europe. There is no USA versus Europe! We're still the friends we have been for a long time.
I don't think it's an us v. them environment either. All I pointed out was that if Europeans are tired of US intrusion into their affairs (whatever that might mean) then you need only to improve your own nations standing, not criticize the actions of the US.
ib wrote:It's pretty sad that you, and too many like you in the States, do not recognise the true attitude of the other English-speaking nations in the World, together with many of our friends on the Continent, that leads us to stick with the USA even when we may not entirely agree with you.
I understand it entirely. Nations have interests not friends. I'm not criticizing you for looking out for your own interests... I just think you ought to admit it rather take the condescending attitude that America needs to "grow up and be more like you"
ib wrote:When are you going to grow up ?
See what I mean. I thought enlightened Europeans were tolerant of dissent... apparently not
ib wrote:I'm too tired to argue about things you only think I said ........
In other words, you realize yeah, you didn't actually write as clearly as you could have. It's OK. I make mistakes too. It's a sign of maturity to admit it.
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ib
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Re: President Obama

Post by ib » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:56 am

Damn! You're still doing it ! Reading everything through over-sensitive glasses finding your own twisted view of what was said and answering that instead of the point actually being made.

And you have the gall to talk about maturity ...... there's really no point in saying any more ... you clearly aren't listening, or worse, really don't understand ........
Regards.
ib
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